Tony’s Politics Live Debate: Bothsidesism works for Israel/Palestine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyzSWDeJIsU

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this is the hardest issue maybe the hardest issue that we have to address but um I was just
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talking with another Creator offline and um you know we’ve both
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gotten wind to the fact that Russian propaganda in this um and again wait to
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hear me out but Russian propaganda in this U is targeting very heavily
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progressives um in the United States talking about Biden genocide and such
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now I personally tend to be much more sympathetic to the
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oppressed um and I understand the fact that um to put it simply when you create
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ghettos you get gangs right and so when you put the Palestinians in the horrific
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situation that they live in uh um you’re bound to get a violent response at some
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point the frustration that I’m having and the reason that I do think to some extent that both sides ISM work Works in
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this circumstance is because from so many progressives I hear them just scooting right over the fact
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um that you know over a thousand people were slaughtered kidnapped um in you
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know the biggest terrorist attack that we’ve seen probably since September 11th
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um that’s not okay you know U for those of you who have some semblance of at
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least a past Christian faith you know you’ll probably recollect in the Bible when Jesus talks about some of the
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parties that he’s dealing with right so he talks about things like the zealots um the Pharisees but you know
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specifically the zealots um wanted a violent response to
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how they were being treated by the Romans um and you know a big part of his
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ministry was was um countering that you know and
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and you saw a lot of this in the Civil Rights Movement um how
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do we effectively counter oppression lovingly
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non-violently um and in fact that’s the only way that’s been proven to have a longlasting effect when you have violent
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up risings even if this situation um you know proves itself to be
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conducive to something like that it never it’s never sustained you end up having typically another violent regime
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take over something like we see in Iran um you know we’ve seen it count countless places around the world and so
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I think if you know if the left wants to start this conversation in a place of
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Love instead of anger they’ve got to ad admit the fact that what Hamas did was not okay and horrific um young girls
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especially you know we’re talking about young girls that were probably against uh you know protesting some of them were
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protesting against n yahu and his right-wing regime um they don’t deserve
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to go through what they had to go through or to be killed or raped or you know whatever else happened um and we
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got to have that as a starting place you can’t just start you know on the tie rate of Israel oppression Israel
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oppression is very real um and we need to talk about it but we’re not going to
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be able to come to a place where we can talk about it unless we admit
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um that violence is wrong and all s uh so both sides ISM in terms of just you
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know you see this a lot in the media right feeling like they have to address both sides um or establishing moral
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equivalency for both sides um kind of too you know multifaceted if
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you will but um it’s you know there’s
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no how do I put it in in this circumstances both sides are wrong and
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that’s the truth uh you can argue whether one side is more wrong than the other um and like I said I tend to be
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sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians that’s you know that’s naturally where I align but that doesn’t
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mean um that we can be okay with this sort of thing exactly how about all the kids
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well yeah kids yeah exactly Palestinian kids right now this is why you know me personally I’m supportive of a ceasefire
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and I hope that we see more calls for that um I don’t think that Israel should
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be um you know completely occupying Gaza
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as they do with the with the West Bank for the most part um
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you know that’s the ones who suffer are especially in Palestine the kids is
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that’s about 50% of the population but kids died in Israel as well and so we’ve got to denounce all of
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it any truth that BB I I am not going to this is one of the things we have to
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deal with here is um it’s whyde misinformation Works you’ve got to
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believe the bare minimum um you know when the when the hospital bombing news
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came out um everyone reacted immediately and we probably shouldn’t have we hadn’t
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you know we couldn’t even get cameras in there we don’t know what’s going on we’re only hearing one side um and the
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same goes with the initial attack the same goes with some of the operations in Gaza
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um but you know I I think uh unfortunately it’s like I saw I saw a
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lot of progress I think a lot of you did in this conversation um in the months prior and
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the second that this attack happened everybody just reverted right back to um
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you know the same responses that you would hear in the 90s or previously and so it’s it’s really hard to
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have um you know compassionate conversation about it why I haven’t I think I’ve made
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one video on this because it’s just it’s too much um I just don’t understand
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though you know I guess I shouldn’t say I don’t understand I do understand why anger is the initial response but anger
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is not the initial response that’s going to work it’s not going to heal anything it’s not going to do anything except
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sustain violence and that goes for Israel Israel and this uh
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Onslaught that they are embarking on um yes of course they have the right to
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defend themselves but that level it’s got to be at an appropriate level you
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know the United States we obviously made huge mistakes in Afghanistan and Iraq
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but there’s some differences there um you know and for the most part when you look at a place like
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Afghanistan um there was a real effort made and I think there probably is a real effort made in Israel as well to
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avoid Civ civilian casualties but um you
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know obviously it’s not possible to completely avoid them but to make no effort in fact to start cutting off
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water and food and electricity is another level and that’s got to be stopped um but you have to
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understand the anger you know we had the same anger after September 11th I felt it you felt
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it um persuasion is definitely not dead you know it’s easy for me to prove that
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because look at how fast people change their minds I mean I’m I obviously changed you can see here former
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conservative for those of you who haven’t heard me before um I’ve changed my mind quite a bit in my life but
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people change their mind so quickly based on
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um you know most of the time cognitive distance or confirmation bias and so of
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course persuasion is not dead um you know this situation just proves that you
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know people who were in the Palestinian Camp here in the on the left the United States that are not even addressing the
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horrific nature of the terrorist attack um fall into that camp they just forget
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about it even though that’s what the right did right um and so persuasion
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persuasion is definitely not de I’m sorry to hear that they um I’m
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assuming you’re talking about Israel when you say that I didn’t see the if there was any previous comments I’m
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sorry to hear that um
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you know I think it’s it’s not something that I can completely address with you other than
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offering my love and sympathy because I’m not in your shoes I don’t have that
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deep anger if in fact what you’re saying is true um all I can say is that if you
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look throughout history at what’s been effective in sustained peace and
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sustained progress it’s never been retribution and violence it’s never
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worked not once um so that’s all I can say to you other
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than obviously offering my complete
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sympathy yeah I mean you know Israel if they are going to counter it’s got to be
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limited and targeted I know Hamas hides behind civilians I get it that’s but that that’s the way it is we you know
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we’ve had to deal with that as well and um it’s it’s just part of the challenge
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of modern
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warfare and that’s again they have been torturing I get it I absolutely get what
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is it before this even happened I think we were looking at something like 600 kids in Palestine had already died this
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year um it’s not okay and I’ll even go so far
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as to say um if if you’re looking at the you know the or origins of this
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problem look closer to the British and the Israelis in United States than than to the Palestinians of course that being
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said retribution is never okay and it never works show me an instance where uh
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a violent counter a violent Uprising has sustained peace and progress show me one
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instance where that’s
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happened Hamas did not do what you might have to explain
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further I wonder in this in these lives how many
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are to make it clear if you put your actual name uh and maybe a picture of yourself
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in your profile nobody would get have to guess whether or not you’re a Russian bot
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so I don’t know if you’re talking to me when you say what should we do then I you know for me an immediate
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ceasefire is is the best solution but you know you you can’t stop Israel from
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defending themelves from Hamas but I think they could do that um in cooperation with their
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allies um in a much more humane way but we got you got to fix Palestine I mean
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yeah that’s that is if Israel wants to look at this
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longer than the short term and longer than uh netanyahu’s political ambitions
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um the way to stop the violence is to improve the conditions in
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Palestine to um embark on a path of
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self-determination uh you know whether that’s two-state solution or otherwise
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um and so that’s that’s how you end the violence that’s the origin of it that being said that doesn’t mean those
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actions are okay that doesn’t mean um you can just start killing kids no
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matter who you are and you know if you’re just going to sit here and defend
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that and not admit that that’s wrong at all you’re not going to make any progress how do you expect to make any
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progress if you’re not trying to persuade people what are you even trying to
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do if there’s nobody left to persuade then why even talk why do
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anything um yeah feel free to put questions in the comment come on to debate I’m not that scary I
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know for those of you who don’t know me I was uh former conservative I worked for two conservative members of Congress
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as well as some other electeds um I was in government Affairs for number of years and now I’m a
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Democrat and um on the other side of things
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but one second
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Hi how are you good how are you I’m doing you I I caught the tail end of
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that um you said you’re now a Democrat yeah yep can you expand on that
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just a little bit yeah yeah I mean obviously it was an overnight transition but um you know
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over the over uh a little over 10 years you know I kind of had a slow
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transformation um I started in politics at a very young age um having grown up
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as an Evangelical conservative and uh you know grew up obsessed with obsessed with conservative
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media um long story short those things changed um 2016 was sort of the nail in
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the coffin for me in terms of the party itself that’s when I became an independent and then uh January 7th 2021
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not necessarily because of the violent Insurrection but uh more so the 147 Republican members that voted to
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overturn the election results I decided to register as a Democrat because I saw that as the only Avenue to stop what was
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going on and and and most of my positions are fairly Progressive
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soes that make sense yeah no I’m just taking it all in I’m listening to you
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taking it all where where are you at uh politically
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I’m in Spokane Washington oh no I just mean politically where you at uh I’m a total [ _ ] 15:07 Republican conservative I honestly I mean I I 15:13 respect your opinions I respect your opinions you know um and I yours well 15:19 you know we can talk about it and [ _ ] I just feel like you know Jesus Christ
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that that that election was to total
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fraud uh Joe Biden should not be [ _ ] president and and here’s the here’s the thing has 15:37 nothing to do with Democrats versus [ _ ] Republicans or conservatives
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anything like that let’s make the right decision for the country I mean have you seen this guy come the [ _ ] 15:50 on what um what was fraudulent about it the election was rigged 15:59 how was it rigged the entire election was rigged the all the votes at 2:00 in 16:05 the morning swapped over and where are you hearing 16:14 that I saw it happen babe sure sure you I mean obviously you 16:20 know I’m assuming you understand the uh situation with mail and ballots and Co 16:25 so for God to got to backtrack a little bit so I um I was around early in my 16:31 political career when California was implementing um mail and ballots for the 16:37 first time and this was a republican Le initiative uh largely because most 16:44 Republican voters were older and they wanted to make it easier for some of these older voters especially those with 16:50 health issues to vote and so mail and ballots were initiated and and the you 16:56 know the way they were initiated now it’s a little different different where everyone is actually given a mailin 17:01 ballot um dead people for Joe Biden I love people voted for let me well let me 17:08 uh let me go a little bit further here um and so in terms of those mail and ballots they were more secure than the 17:15 actual bouts because of uh you know all of the um concerns that we had to get 17:21 around and so that’s why they require a signature and um all kinds of verifications so you can actually be 17:27 more you know secure in a mail and ballot being an actual vote than somebody that 17:34 goes to the polling station with all du because of the level of verification and 17:39 so for years for years Republicans used mail and ballots more often than 17:46 Democrats and so what we would see in elections was Republicans voting early 17:52 and taking early leads and then Democrats coming back later and all those those uh votes from the polling 17:58 station coming in and Democrats would um 18:03 you know come on a little bit later and that’s that’s sort of just a natural way it flowed right um in 18:12 2020 everything flipped because of coid obviously we had these political fights 18:17 in this country in terms of um wonder what was going on with coid and for 18:23 whatever reason Republicans decided to stop trusting mailin ballot 18:29 Democrats Democrats relied on mailin ballots because they were safer Co was 18:34 going nobody wanted to go to the polling station because of pandemic and so what happened was those Trends completely 18:40 flipped and so you had Democrat votes um you know coming in early in the 18:46 mailin but the mail ends aren’t counted till after so previously the Republicans vote earlier but they would be counted 18:53 later so those Republican votes would would come later so when I say an early lead I just meant those those ballots 18:59 were received earlier but you didn’t see that lead to later in 2020 that flipped 19:04 so you didn’t see the Democrat votes until later and so all the people that went to the polling station that were 19:10 Republican it would it made it look like Republicans had a commanding lead but once those mailin ballots were counted 19:17 Democrats came back and then took the lead so if you saw a change in the middle of the night that’s true but you 19:24 were probably only shocked by it because it was now Democrats when in you know the past uh you know 10 elections before 19:32 that it was Republicans that would come on Le SLI in three seconds at 3:00 in 19:37 the morning it doesn’t flip from 100,000 votes one way to the other it it just 19:43 doesn’t do that well nothing happened in 3 seconds I don’t know what you’re talking about there yes it absolutely did all the votes that went for Trump 19:49 flipped over to Biden that it’s fraudin frenal election so I just need to stop 19:56 you there because it’s just not true that’s not what happened so yeah votes did come in later that were Democrat but 20:02 nothing flipped in in three minutes 100,000 votes that’s you probably heard that on some three seconds um yeah three 20:09 seconds that doesn’t happen so you probably heard that on some rightwing station like own or something like that 20:14 but that that’s not true that doesn’t happen but what does happen is those Democrat votes will come in later 20:20 because they were mailing votes why okay so can I ask you something why do you 20:26 stand true and stand tall as a Democrat today what’s what back what do you mean 20:33 stand true and stand tall as a Democrat what does that Democrat what makes you your political beliefs what makes you a 20:40 Democrat today I’m not a stand true and Stand Tall Democrat I’m a member of a 20:46 political party for political reasons and the reason for political card parties is to get likeminded candidates 20:53 elected nothing more nothing less this isn’t like some ideological cult for me 20:59 this is just the Avenue that I have right now to get like-minded people elected if there were more political 21:04 parties that were effective that would be wonderful but that’s not the case right now so speak your case who are you 21:12 so it’s not a stand tall and stand true thing it’s that this is the best option to get the most like-minded people 21:18 elected you’re obviously sicking your neck out for Democrats and liberals so 21:24 all I’m asking you to do is do you mean sticking my neck out I’m not sure what that means cuz you’re [ _ ] on here
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right now cuz you’re I’m not on here for Democrats and liberals I happen to be a registered Democrat but I’m on here for
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myself you’re on here for yourself it’s because I’m a Democrat doesn’t mean that I align with Democrats
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and everything it just happens to be the best Avenue for me right now oh I see but in the future if that changes just
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like political parties change I’ll switch I’m not I’m not a I’m not a loyal
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party guy it’s just this is where I need to be right now so you’re an independent I was an independent until
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January 6th till January 6 when the capital was
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rated yeah not so much the physical rating because the you know these goobers um aren’t going to make me
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switch my political affiliation uh but the 147 Republicans have voted to overturn the election results um that’s
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what made me switch that’s that’s dangerous and so Democratic party unfortunately right now is the only way
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to stop that and it happened to align with their values more yeah you know what does align with a lot of pe’s
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values or these [ _ ] Democrats that went into the capital nothing has ever 22:40 happened to them they’ve raided it they have 22:46 totally and they violated it more than anything that ever happened on January 6 22:52 with the conservative party no nothing will I understand that when somebody 22:58 says something that I understand that when somebody says something you disagree with and you don’t know all the 23:04 information to counter that that can be angering U but I would encourage you to 23:09 just stop for a minute and consider the fact that you might not know all the 23:15 information you might be getting information from uh fraudulent sources um and I think you need to take 23:22 that into consideration CU you’re bouncing around quite a bit when you know when I when I finish up a point on 23:28 a single argument you then bounce over the next Point TR to ask me why I’m a Democrat or yeah what not but if we can 23:34 stay on a single topic and debate that single topic you know I think that we can make some 23:40 progress oh God because I only have so much time to talk to you I only have you know a 23:46 limited amount of time to tell you that you’re a [ _ ] dumbass and you should [ _ ] shut up and be quiet and [ _ ]
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follow that’s the kind of response you get when you don’t know what you’re talking about you resort to things like
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that if you knew what you were talking about you would just debate me but when you don’t you get angry you start
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launching things like that and just makes you look silly oh okay all right
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cool wow good luck but if you want to debate a topic feel free if you want to
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stick to the election that’s fine if you want to go back to Israel Palestine but I would encourage you instead of
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dropping bombs and saying I don’t know what to talk about to consider the fact that you may not know what you’re
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talking about wow I can’t sit here and and you look me in the face you look in
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the camera and you say that was not a fraudulent election I it wasn’t a fraud
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election damn are you kidding me are you [ _ ] kidding me 24:50 that election ladies ladies listen are we can can we first of 24:56 all this what I don’t know hey what’s up everybody how’s everybody 25:02 doing we’re doing okay what do you got for us Daniel well uh not a 25:08 lady well I I didn’t know Jen’s a lady I think and she’s a and there’s well I 25:14 said guys guys and then I said ladies ladies I was that was two for two I kept it 25:19 even what the [ _ ] what do you got for us well uh I feel like the the big thing
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that’s being left out of the uh Israel Palestine debate especially like everybody everybody was talking about
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epine and gusan Maxwell for years leading up to this and then all of a sudden Israel’s in the news and we
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completely forget that they had huge ties to Israeli
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intelligence who the Epstein Epstein Gan Maxwell what does it have to do with uh
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the current situation why are we funding a country that was running a pedophile
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Island operation yep true story I mean where are you getting that information I don’t
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know oh you are you you don’t know of this Den you don’t know that gasan Maxwell is a former mad
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operative I understand the situation with the Epstein right and I have heard
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some of their ties to Israeli authorities American authorities UK
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authorities who what does that have to do what I’m talking about I’m not talking ties to I’m talking about they
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were mad operatives this is well known what what
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does that have to do with our current situation why would we fund a pedophile Island why would we send money to a p
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like why are our tax dollars being sent to the country whose intelligence agency
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ran an operation that was trafficking hundreds of women hundreds of girls you
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a what which what would be a source that you you would deem uh reliable because
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this is I mean this is I I I you’re asking me to to cite the source that
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Gane Maxwell was a mad operative is that what you’re asking I’m asking you to
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site a source it says that the Israeli government was funding his operations do you know what msad is of course but what
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does it have to do with the current Israeli Palestinian conflict that’s been going on for hundreds of years do before
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Jeffrey EP was alive where where do you think Jeffrey Epstein got his money he was a finance
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year right A New York Finance year correct how are we on Jeffrey
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Epstein right now you’re gonna have to draw this connection what’s a I don’t know good source how about the
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FBI it’s 100% funded by the Israeli government and uh therefore it’s it’s
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our tax dollars our tax dollars are Fu do you have a source I asked you what
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source would you deem reliable I can show you what do you have
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any like what Google go on Google and type in is G Lane Maxwell a former
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Massad operative any Source will tell you yes it’s not a conspiracy you just
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name one I don’t know what do you got what what article I don’t know let me
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yeah let me Google I’m Googling right now on the side here and I don’t see anything so I don’t know what you’re talking about [ _ ] [ _ ] dumbass
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you’re you’re [ _ ] ignorant you are ignorant you know Jen the reason I let you stay on here is just so you can show 28:31 people how dumb you are perfectum I’m a [ _ ] doctor by the
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way I went to school for [ _ ] of Israel doctor of third grade smackdowns 28:45 Rolling Stone which which one would you like me the guardian which one would you like me to read 28:51 from I know right this is a fun group uh yeah uh say what were the sour again I heard Guardian what else you 28:58 have uh New York Post Rolling Stone even has 29:04 one close I mean do you have like do you know who Robert Maxwell was 29:11 yes I’m not how can we have a conversation though if um I don’t know 29:17 for sure if there are any ties that you’re talking about so I don’t know I don’t know I don’t know I don’t know so 29:25 you don’t know if Robert Maxwell had ties J reminds me of this you know one of those 29:33 UE and you’re asking me to site sources on whether Robert Maxwell was a Massad 29:40 operative what are we talking about here what what is what about the Israeli Palestinian conflict tyal Lial go back 29:46 to the beginning start over ignore everything else typical Li liberal with 29:52 our darn logic so frustrating what are you asking what is 29:57 the question I don’t know what are you getting at man I I’m trying to figure 30:02 out what you’re getting at I’m getting at we shouldn’t be sending our tax dollars to pedophiles enlight mentality save me 30:10 what do you got for us I just want to know why it matters like why like why why does the Epstein thing 30:18 matter why what do you mean why does it m why do why why do our tax dollars funding a pedophile Island 30:25 matter okay the pedophile Island how does that matter to what is happening 30:31 today so let’s say you’re 100% true like correct let’s just say it’s correct why 30:37 does that matter today we’re sending them hundreds of millions of dollars 30:43 more okay so you just have a problem with them sending Israel money in 30:48 general absolutely okay so it’s once it was revealed that a mad 30:55 operative was running a giant pedophile operation out of the United States we should have cut off ties we should have cut off all 31:02 economic ties with Israel what the [ _ ] do you know how much money we’ve sent to Ukraine we sent billions of dollar do
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that to we should do the same thing to Ukraine J just realiz he’s not on Daniel’s
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side so now let’s say it’s not true like it’s absolutely just a rumor like every
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Source says do you still have a problem with them sending money what’s Source says that it’s a
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rumor that Cain Maxwell was a mad operative pretty much all of them I looked real quick I’m not going to spend
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a ton of time looking into it because I don’t care but um what like let’s say it’s not true
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like it’s just a rumor that’s the extent that we know that there’s this rumor do you still have a problem with
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them sending money oh yeah of course I mean yeah we have homeless veterans here
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we’re sending money so Israel can bomb hospitals
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mhm so what obviously um is the Epstein
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situation the only reason that you don’t think we should fund Israel or are there other reasons did
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you can you guys hear me yeah I can hear you can hear me yeah
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I just said I I we have homeless veterans here why would we send money to Israel so that they could throw rockets
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at hospitals right so so it goes Bey all I’m saying is it for you it goes beyond
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the Epstein situation then right yeah no I don’t see any reason to send money so regardless of whether the
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Epstein situation is true we can still move on with our discussion can why do we turn our heads away from that and
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just ignore it that’s what all you liberals do you turn your head away and you act like it’s not relevant and not
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present why is that I don’t get a sense that Daniel’s a big liberal here but
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yeah I mean I don’t know who she’s talking to but uh what what do what do I turn my head
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at I don’t think Daniel’s a liberal Jen I know you I know it’s either you I
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know it’s either magga or liberal for you there’s no in between but I don’t think that’s where Daniel’s coming from here yeah no I I hate the poor I’m not a
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[ _ ] liberal I I I am not a liberal I’m Conservative 33:24 Republican whole we understand that but I’m saying I think you think Daniel’s a liberal and Daniel’s not Jesus Christ 33:31 [ _ ] you you you [ _ ] mind [ _ ] people you’re dumb you drunk I got to
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have what you’re drinking tonight yeah I thought that was Chris Angel who mind [ _ ] 33:44 people Mind Freak Mind Freak awesome awesome oh that’s right cuz it was on uh it was on daytime TV hey Mr Tony hey 33:53 Tris what’s going on man yeah the issue we must hit a nerve with 34:01 the alcohol I don’t know either that or her cup was empty and she’s like oh 34:06 [Music] yeah anyway uh well I think we can move on move forward now at least so Travis 34:13 what do you got for us hey I just had a you know quick question you know uh on the Israel Palestine thing all right so 34:20 I I was always like oh wow cool you know we we went in we liberated a bunch of people from you know the camps and in 34:27 after World War II and uh right on we established uh you know Israel as as a 34:34 state there and uh and I always thought you know cool uh I I had a conversation with a friend of mine who was from 34:41 morania who is a Muslim and they had a totally different take and I just thought it was interesting um that you 34:49 know the Palestinians always you know had that that land you know what at 34:54 least it was under British rule I get that uh but they were like living there 35:00 Britain gave all give it to the UN and then when the US came in and so they the 35:05 way they saw it they saw thousands upon thousands of refugees leave leaving that area because 35:12 they were basically getting forced out so that we can you know create a a home for for Israel and so it really kind of 35:19 opened my eyes a lot I mean it’s kind of like you in the house that you live in Tony I mean if somebody came and said we 35:26 need to bring some refugees I need you to leave or you know I need you to you know make room for them it it really um 35:34 shed some light for me on on the whole issue here you know why Palestine is so 35:39 uh upset at this whole thing why they don’t want peace because they still feel like it hasn’t been that long ago just 35:46 in the 1940s you know my parents were you know uh born around that time so it 35:52 hasn’t been a lot all that time we’ve we as in the UN mostly the us at the time 35:59 forced out all these people that we took from these concentration camps put them in Israel but in doing that you know we 36:06 kind of like pushed out a whole bunch of people did we did that nation building kind of thing and so I you know I think 36:13 it’s horrible what’s going on but you know I think you know there is that that 36:18 I guess people kind of turn a blind eye on on a little bit is that nobody really talks about the displacement of people 36:24 that were already living in that area they got pushed out so they can create another land it’s not like it was just empty 36:31 unused un undeveloped land I mean it was already people living there and they sort of got pushed out so I don’t know 36:38 what what’s your thought that yeah no and you know like I kind of said at the 36:43 beginning um ultimately I you know generally I line 36:48 up with the Palestinian people fighting oppression um you know you can go back 36:54 even further obviously under the Ottoman Empire uh you know the region was relatively 37:00 peaceful with the three religions living together now you know one thing that I will say is that um you know there’s a 37:08 little piece of misinformation that the Jews weren’t there before uh the Holocaust before they 37:14 started moving in there were Jews living there um just as there were Palestinians living there they were living in peace 37:21 and there happen to be more Palestinians um and even the term Palestinian I you 37:26 know we say that now but the the area was just considered Palestine um so even the the Jews living there might have 37:32 been considered Palestinians um and so the Jews were there as well but you know ultimately 37:37 the Ottoman Empire ran a fair Fairly peaceful region and when that was no longer the case the British screwed the 37:44 place up like they did in India um with their artificial 37:50 boundaries um often religious and so they did the same thing with Israel Palestine and trying to divide it up up 37:57 U but at least at that point they were divided up relatively evenly um that 38:04 situation started to deteriorate over the years especially when the United States got involved and then ultimately 38:11 in 1967 um you know when Israel won the war 38:18 um and so yeah there you know the Palestinians absolutely have an argument there and have 38:25 absolutely been oppressed conditions in Gaza are horrific even before this um 38:30 the West Bank is is under military occupation completely um there’s no 38:35 Freedom there and that’s not okay um and you know people there didn’t necessarily at least originally do anything to 38:42 deserve it and even today you couldn’t say they did anything to deserve it these are mostly kids um the problem I 38:48 have and the reason for the debate tonight is that as allies of the Palestinian people 38:56 people as progressives as lovers of freedom and progress and all the things 39:02 we’re not going to get anywhere if we don’t acknowledge the pain and heartache 39:09 caused by this horrific terrorist attack um when a terrorist attack happens 39:14 people get very angry they start to think short-term um and it’s not necessarily 39:21 that it’s the right that it’s right that that has to be addressed although I I do think it’s right but it’s more so that 39:28 if we’re going to make any progress in um talking to people about the plight of the Palestinian people you’re never 39:35 going to do so if you just ignored the death rape and um kidnapping of kids in 39:43 a terrorist attack and so I think that the left has to do a better job of 39:48 acknowledging the the horrific nature of that and that opens the door to talk 39:53 about the situation and you know yeah I agree that it’s horrible man it’s a 39:59 horrible situation but when when folks were rounded up by Hitler uh and put in 40:07 those camps you know I believe that they were not you know from that area of 40:13 Palestine and rounded up there and you know put it into the concentration camps they were living in Germany they were living in Poland they were living in all 40:20 that area and so when they were liberated from those camps you know it was pretty much what 40:27 do we do with these folks and I I personally think you know they should have gone back to live in the homes that 40:34 they were you know ousted out of even I know it’s horrible because infrastructure was all bombed up you 40:39 know there was a big war houses and you know living conditions were horrible you know how can you get along with these 40:46 people that just enslaved you basically but I think to put them into this area 40:52 just opened up a whole can of worms and and it was us we did this you know 41:00 and well the British did it before us but yeah yeah we did this yeah yeah you’re right absolutely right you know 41:06 but they sort of bowed out and said I don’t want any part of this you un which is basically the us at the time you know 41:13 it’s on you what do you want to do and and you know I don’t I don’t know the the the actual Logistics of what 41:20 happened on that land Tony but you know I live in a city you know of like you 41:25 know 300,000 people and I cannot imagine everybody being told to basically leave 41:33 the area so that others can come and inhabit that same you know those homes 41:39 and the schools and and sort of just be granted that kind of stuff and and like I said this guy that I talked to his 41:45 father took in you know refugees and so they had a different point of view they just saw the the horror of people being 41:52 forced out and I don’t think we talk about that a lot about the mistake that was made U by by opening up the K of 42:01 worms yeah no I I uh again you’re not going to find any disagreement here in 42:06 terms of the um sort of the origins of the problem and uh the impact of that um 42:16 my only point is we do live in the here and now and we also have to acknowledge 42:22 a different kind of evil um I will say if you go back to World War II um you 42:30 know one of the reasons they weren’t one of the many reasons they weren’t wanted back where you know in their original 42:36 homes was still because of anti-Semitism a lot of the people there still didn’t want them 42:42 around um and so you know there’s there’s sort of that ugliness in in um 42:49 some of the political process but you know in addition to that 42:55 um you know I think the world the world dealt with Nazi Germany 43:01 in the only way that it could given the amount that Hitler was allowed to 43:08 encroach on everyone else’s territory had that been addressed earlier it may 43:14 be a different story but regardless you know the way that we dealt with Nazi Germany was through war 43:21 and unfortunately war is ugly and you have to make alliances with uh 43:27 Nations and groups that don’t necessarily align with your values and one of those countries that we had to 43:33 align with to defeat the Nazis was the Soviet Union and then we had to deal with because of that um another nearly 43:43 Century of evil that included the Googs right and and things like that and so 43:50 you know while liberating people from the con concentration camps was Wonder ful um 43:57 it’s another example of the cycle of violence and I think that’s something 44:02 that Gandhi that’s something that the Civil Rights Movement um really took to 44:08 heart and they spent a lot of time educating themselves on how to achieve 44:13 sustained progress um and the only way to do that is through non-violent 44:19 resistance and well I you know it’s hard from a moral 44:24 standpoint to expect people that were oppressed um to embark 44:30 on such a thing the only thing that I would tell people in those kinds of situation is it’s not whether it’s right or wrong for you to have to do that it’s 44:37 what actually works um you know at this point if you want sustained progress for 44:43 the Palestinian people much like black Americans achieved although there’s a long way to go um that only comes 44:49 through nonviolent resistance let’s say we got a new visitor fellow I can’t read the rest what do you 44:56 got for us oh actually I got uh suspended from chat for the last 24 hours so I’d really 45:03 just joined cuz there’s this guy in the chat I want to respond to he says country of old men marry 14 and 16y old 45:09 girls sick and tired 450 dude the median age for Palestinians is 18 none of them 45:15 even make it past 30 like on average everyone like over I don’t remember the percentage but people that are over 30 45:21 it’s like 20% of their their yeah also what like is the solution then to bomb 45:27 the like even if there’s a bunch of child Brides In in Palestine is the solution to bomb them like yes if you B 45:35 if you kill the child Brides technically there isn’t a child bride problem but like you’re it’s what is the logic there 45:43 what how how does that justify bombing civilians I think it’s just some 45:50 islamophobia yeah I think so too yeah what’s interesting though is how it kind of correlates with the 45:56 know this person’s like manic they’re just repeating the same thing yeah he can’t bro it’s literally the median age 46:03 is 18 no one makes it past 30 you can go Google 46:14 that it’s so weird it’s like it it’s it’s it’s like oh yeah don’t kill these 46:19 children oh but they’re married I don’t understand why like it’s just it’s I 46:25 don’t know that I also I feel like yeah it’s like what you said about um people 46:31 not acknowledging like the hurt and anger that comes from such a tragedy but like you know we’ve been through this we 46:37 we uh we went into Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11 and uh it tanked our economy 46:46 um traumatized a whole generation of people um and then they had to come back 46:52 and now they’re dealing with all this PTSD and injuries and they you know 46:57 there’s they they got to deal with the [ _ ] VA which is the worst thing in the world and uh and then on top of that
47:06
like a million dead civilians and uh you know a whole generation of people in
47:12
other countries that are going to grow up hating America and so you know it’s just and like they’ve already started
47:19
doing this I think it was they’re they’re reporting 3500 uh casualties in Palestine
47:26
over the past 10 days which and then over a thousand of these people are
47:31
children and uh yeah it’s I think it’s higher too it’s like 5,000 is what I was
47:38
just hearing I well it’s hard to count because they’re killing journalists left and right this guy followed on uh
47:45
Twitter passed away um he was a journalist in Palestine and uh he was
47:51
killed in an air strike um so yeah it’s it’s and also like all this talk about
48:00
anti-Semitism and like everybody being accused of being an anti-semite like I
48:05
fear for my Jewish friends around the world what the response from the International Community is going to be
48:11
to such a vast
48:17
overreaction yeah I think you know one of the things you brought up though kind of applies here um in that
48:26
I I completely agree with pretty much everything you just said um and it’s why we need a ceasefire it’s why it’s got to
48:33
stop that being said part of the blame for these civilians dying in Gaza has to
48:41
be put on Hamas because they were they are hiding behind civilians we do know that you know that’s not something
48:47
that’s a lie um and not allowing them to leave you know buildings that um
48:54
Israel’s warning that they’re going to bomb so yes Israel needs to stop um they
49:00
are the source of the problem if you will but we also have to acknowledge the
49:06
fact that Hamas is also partially blame for those deaths I think if you listen you know to
49:13
what the Palestinians are asking for Tony I I don’t think we’re I don’t think they’ve moved on the way we would like
49:20
them to say we’re in the here and now you know if you’re standing on my foot since then you haven’t moved your you’re
49:27
still standing and there’s still pain you know you have not they’re they’re still pointing back at the fact that
49:33
they were removed from that area and they they don’t want they don’t want
49:38
Israel there they just don’t want it there and I mean I I am not anti-site at all you know at all but I think it was
49:45
wrong of what we did and I think that if you listen to them you know they’re not going to they’re not going to be ever
49:51
okay with what happened and I don’t think we’re listening to that and we shouldn’t know I mean yeah they
49:58
we should listen and they shouldn’t be okay with it that’s not what I’m saying I’m just saying um that we have to
50:04
acknowledge evil where evil is at in all circumstances otherwise we’re going to cut one side completely off from
50:10
listening all right you ready for this I’m actually going to say something positive about Donald Trump are you
50:16
ready I saw a c brother of Donald Trump and I am I am not a trump fan at all I
50:23
absolutely am glad he’s forth from the bottom in president because that’s where he belongs but there was a clip where he
50:29
was talking about this is an old clip not related to this conflict but he was talking about trying to broker a peace
50:35
agreement and he was going into that expecting the Palestinians to be
50:41
impossible and he said he met with them and they were very responsive they talked with him and he said after like I
50:48
think he said like 3 to 5 minutes so he had Don net you know baby Netanyahu
50:53
before this and he he said within a few minutes he said I looked at him I said you don’t want to deal do you and Israel
51:00
said no like Netanyahu was like completely not interested and he he said
51:05
that’s when he knew it wasn’t going to happen because the Palestinians were more Cooperative with him than
51:16
Netanyahu interesting you want [ _ ] um so I 51:22 came in a little bit late um you guys supporting Palestine or Israel palese we 51:29 got a mixed bag all over the place here I don’t think any of us are like well I guess Daniel’s I 51:36 think I think we’re all generally I can probably make the statement that we’re all generally supportive of the plight 51:42 of the Palestinians um we have some disagreements in approach you know 51:47 forgive me if I’m not stating your opinion correctly but 51:53 yeah I kind of get what um what’s his what’s his name uh JM I kind of get what 51:58 JM was saying too like how Hamas like and the P like that that whole attack 52:04 this is after like Decades of living under just gruesome apartheid conditions 52:12 and air strikes and uh I mean also yeah 52:17 like the the the uh IDF has just a horrible human rights um resume but uh 52:26 so yeah I do kind of get the notion that um Hamas was getting their lick back but 52:33 and then that’s the crazy thing about like people in Israel saying like oh we need a swift response as if this attack 52:40 from Hamas was just out of nowhere they’re like whoa what are you what are you doing this for like that’s just not 52:46 what happened and there’s it’s you’re just you’re completely washing away history if you if you look at it like 52:53 that but I mean mean it’s just on either side on either side once you start 52:59 bringing children into it you’ve lost your sense of humanity definitely do know I think a 53:07 lot of times we get too caught up in what’s right and what’s wrong and less I 53:12 this might be because I’ve had a career in politics so I don’t know take that for what it’s worth um but instead of 53:19 what works uh you know you can pound the table all you want and be on the right 53:24 side of things and then you might get thrown into um an oppressive situation 53:29 right um there is an effective way to persuade um and to use rhetoric and I do 53:38 think that that works and I think when I’m talking about um you know people acknowledging 53:45 and I’m not necessarily talking about people in Gaza that are currently being bombed I’m not sitting there you know 53:52 expecting them to make a reasonable argument right now they’re not in that place and that’s why you need allies um 53:57 but I think generally on the left those of us who who understand or at least are 54:03 more supportive of what the Palestinians are going through um you have to understand that we need to make progress 54:08 in that argument we need to make the world understand or nothing’s going to happen but constant war and death and to 54:15 do that you’ve got to acknowledge that what Hamas did was evil and that you know that’s that’s really the only place 54:21 I’m coming from like aside from like maybe Mia 54:26 Khalifa which by the way let me just speak on that for a second regardless of whether you disagree with what MIA 54:32 Khalifa said or not for PornHub to fire her after all she has done for them 54:39 after all she has done for the industry the art form I mean she she’s she’s a 54:46 legend she should be respected as such she should be given a pass she I even if you’re mad at her after all she has done 54:53 for us did you didn’t you start this by talking about Epstein now you’re giving praise to 55:00 Pornhub no no no no I’m saying I’m just giving you a hard time 55:05 man how they turn how they would turn on the woman that made them into an Empire 55:12 what kind of cocaine are you buying Jo you this is just is Am I Wrong 55:18 Am I Wrong I’m pretty sure I’m right yes or yes a star Daniel is a great contributor to 55:25 this chat and I’m appreciative any I just giving you a hard time I thought it was a funny connection yeah no the point 55:32 I was the point I was making before I went on that tangent uh defending um one of the great uh 55:41 American entrepreneurs of our time uh I was saying yeah she’s like the only 55:47 person I’ve seen make any kind of uh statement in support of Hamas I mean 55:55 yeah i’ I haven’t seen any the only people I’ve seen the only people I’ve seen calling for any kind of violence 56:01 against children are the people saying that we need to like level Gaza Gaza needs to be a crater I mean Netanyahu 56:08 was literally tweeting out this is Children of light versus Children Of Darkness he sounded like [ _ ]
56:14
Palpatine oh yeah no he’s embracing the whole savior he’s he’s in his Sith Lord
56:21
but there are that being said you have to acknowledge that there are you know people you know Hamas especially that do
56:27
call for the elimination of Israeli people all the time so I mean yeah and
56:33
their their their whole uh whatever their textbook or their uh manual I
56:38
don’t know what you even call it um yeah it’s super anti-semetic and uh and all
56:44
that but um we have to somehow try to be able to find Nuance like to be able to
56:50
discuss some level of nuance otherwise nothing we can’t progress here you know what I mean and I I think the only way
56:56
to do that is is you know to listen to what both sides want and I think the only thing that Palestine wants is to
57:02
have Israel just completely dissolved and and have the land go back to the way it was before 1947 which is not going to
57:09
happen right but I mean that’s that’s basically what you know what they want if I have no I mean I think
57:16
most if I have two acres 200 acres of land and you take it from me if you tell
57:22
me Well what if I give you a Dodge Ram Jesse would that make you feel better you know I I don’t I don’t think that
57:28
that’s really going to make do I think the dod Ram genuinely would make them feel better like like actually a Dodge
57:34
Ram but I’m saying like yes they want well again though you got to remember
57:40
though there were Jews living here too it wasn’t just Palestinians that were living there no but I get what he he’s
57:45
saying like they want their land back they want the land back that was from them and yeah like I don’t think they’ll
57:53
be full satisfac I that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push for other kinds of strides like I think
58:01
beong but if you look the last time I looked at some of the polling I don’t know how good the polling data is in among the Palestinian people but I think
58:08
most Palestinians are supportive of a two-state solution yeah I’ve seen similar uh yeah so I don’t think
58:15
everybody just wants to go back to pre yeah they just want to on all the streets they want to be able to I think
58:22
that’s a way bigger priority for them it’s just living a life of normaly I don’t think Hamas probably Hamas
58:29
probably wants to go back but I don’t think majority of the policy and peopleas really just spawned out of
58:36
resistance like that’s what their you know objective was I’m not condoning the concert attack and or anything but you
58:44
know that’s it’s just a long it’s like 75 years of Oppression that’s why
58:49
they’re you know acting out like they have I don’t know if they even necessarily want
58:57
Trail of Tears you know I mean you know they were forced out off their Landes the way that Native Americans were you
59:03
know and but so here’s the thing well they’re
59:08
still there but what happened in the past and who had the land in the past matters only to
59:13
an extent because you fall into like revanchism and irid dentis which was pretty much Hitler’s ideology like
59:19
claiming prior land it’s what Russia is doing in Ukraine and it’s doesn’t always hold
59:26
water as a reason for right now like it’s something that can be discussed but
59:32
realistically I saw a crater on here um and I can’t remember his name and he was saying all of that is noise because
59:40
ultimately you can’t go back like there has to be a solution going
59:45
forward and so whatever the lines were at whatever Point like it has to be like
59:51
both sides have to let it go mean
59:56
Ukraine’s not gonna just let it go and say all right you know come
1:00:02
on for their land one of the biggest things I keep hearing all the Israeli people say is like well let our hostages
1:00:08
go and I’m curious if y’all looked into or know how many uh they’re technically
1:00:15
prisoners that are imprisoned from by Israel but they’re to me they’re like prisoners of War like technically
1:00:21
hostages but do yall know how many yeah it’s 4500 or possibly more the
1:00:28
craziest thing to me is that they’re denied access to legal representation and then also Israel doesn’t release any
1:00:36
proof no there’s no evidence of any of their wrongdoing and some of the excuses
1:00:41
for some of the percentage of the 4500 or more it’s like they say Well they’re terrorists so like we don’t have to we
1:00:49
don’t they don’t they don’t deserve the representation Andes how does that work in America anyway like like does do
1:00:55
terrorists get lawyers here in America do don’t we have to have proof of their crimes well so there was that was the
1:01:01
HDI versus um I have to go back to my law school days but those are the uh the
1:01:07
old um Guantanamo Bay cases and essentially military combatants as they
1:01:14
were considered that weren’t US citizens um were basically granted no
1:01:19
rights so they they didn’t have a right to representation um but if you were a citizen you did have some right to
1:01:26
representation um it’s a little bit complicated but those are basically the dividing lines I think the the opinion
1:01:32
was written by Scalia the line is they’re just
1:01:38
admitting war crimes to yeah to me
1:01:44
it I mean that’s how War goes you know you can set stone rules and so what not
1:01:49
but when War happens you know [ _ ] is going to go sideways no matter what and 1:01:55 every country is going to take advantage of whatever they can to make it seem 1:02:00 better than what it is yep 1:02:06 and Israel was the most oppressed the Jewish people were the most oppressed 1:02:13 people um of all time in terms of what happened to them in the early 20th century right and now we’re seeing a 1:02:20 situation where know the zealots of that group are doing some of the very same things 1:02:28 and I think this is another example of sort of the cycle of violence and it’s 1:02:33 why I don’t think violent uprisings whether you’re Palestinian or otherwise ever work it’s why you have to go the 1:02:40 non-violent route um if you want sustained progress and I know it’s it’s 1:02:45 very difficult to reach people who are under her for conditions to to make that point but but I think I think that’s a b 1:02:53 Point as if you look at in history is full of wars and we have made you know exponential progress actually so 1:03:04 why it played part of you know who we are today um without let’s say World War 1:03:11 I and two we wouldn’t see many developments in many areas of um uh 1:03:17 medicine weapons um engineering you’re talking about technological progress I’m talking about human rights oh yeah but 1:03:25 look I mean with more technological progress and more systematical things we’re we’re pushing more 1:03:33 rights this guy saying progress does not happen without violence what are you 1:03:39 talking about like happens all the time without violence that’s not what I’m saying you 1:03:45 took it out what it was a guy in the chat yeah antibubbles that’s the dumbest 1:03:52 thing I’ve ever heard an bubles go go watch or read a book on Martin Luther King my 1:03:58 man also like dude every Pixar movie was made without violence like what are you 1:04:04 there’s so dude I I can grow a bunch of bananas without violence like what is 1:04:10 your idea of progress just I wouldn’t make too much of it somebody it could be a bot who knows usually the violence is 1:04:17 from the backlash to progress was there violence though I mean and I hate to keep beating a dead Hors man but you 1:04:23 know 75 years ago I mean sh why we debate Travis don’t be don’t apologize well I mean Biden was uh you know Biden 1:04:31 was born before Israel ever existed right I mean it wasn’t that long ago I 1:04:36 guess is what I’m saying this wasn’t 400 years ago that that this happened this happened within Biden’s lifetime like 1:04:42 this is right but it wasn’t a clean transition like you’re making it sound it wasn’t as if like they just decided 1:04:49 this is where the Jewish people should go we’re going to kick everyone out and this is this is what we’re going to do 1:04:55 that’s not what it was there were Jewish people living there there were were liberated and taken over from 1:05:03 Germany and Poland they were moving there was huge huge migration there and 1:05:08 a whole new country was created at the cost of other people being displaced but 1:05:13 a lot it wasn’t as clean as you’re making it sound because 1:05:19 remember the British were the first ones to divide it up and that’s probably most of what you’re talking about that was after World War I that’s when a lot of 1:05:26 migration happened going from Jerusalem into Gaza or into the west bank and then 1:05:31 there was a mass migration obviously after World War II um post Holocaust 1:05:37 that was all over Europe though reason what what was that reason that they were put there it was the 1:05:44 Zionist it was Zion wanted them it was Zionist but it was a lot of it was CU nobody wanted them sadly it was a lot of 1:05:52 anti-Semitism a lot people in the neighbor when when we say Zionist we’re saying that because that was their land 1:06:00 400 years ago right and and that’s why they want to go back to what they consider their land that has not been 1:06:06 their land again I am not an anti-m i i sound like Wonder so bad I hate that but 1:06:12 I’m just saying like nobody thinks you are nobody thinks you are there were people that were displaced children also 1:06:18 died I’m sure you know in that you know and to get out of here so we can build a country sure that there was a lot of 1:06:25 what they would call evil that we are now calling evil right but the same thing happened for instance in India and 1:06:31 Pakistan do you think that the Pakistani people should be able to move back to India and take back portions of India um 1:06:40 this kind of stuff happen all over the world and we can you know we can only go so far back I mean New Zealand there was some 1:06:47 of that you know that that occurred there and the people were able to sort of get their country back and I’m not 1:06:52 saying that that’s what’s going to happen here I I I I would prefer a much cleaner this is your side this is our 1:06:58 side versus strips here and there um to me that doesn’t make any sense um but I 1:07:04 don’t know I don’t know they that’s what they were trying to do 1:07:09 it’s the Palestinians even like after World War II when all the European Jewish settlers like they’ve sought 1:07:15 refuge and that’s why they ended up in Palestine like he was saying no one else wanted them and the Palestinians opened 1:07:21 their hearts up and welcomed them you know with open hands and just like literally helped out this population of 1:07:27 Jews that were being treated so poor like uh at at best they were 1:07:32 discriminated against at worse they were un alived right so like that’s the sad part to me about it all is that 1:07:38 literally the tables are turned now and these these people that took over the land you know 75 years ago they’re just 1:07:45 now they’re acting as the uh oppress I don’t know if it I don’t know if it was that clean though because you know the 1:07:52 reason the reason for the dividing Lions initially was because there was so much 1:07:57 conflict between the Jews and um uh 1:08:02 Muslims under British rule prior to the holoc Holocaust post World War I and it 1:08:08 was that tension that Drew the dividing lines initially and then after the 1:08:13 Holocaust it the whole situation was exacerbated because there was an influx of immigrants and that’s when you saw um 1:08:21 sort of the hard dividing lines so I don’t think it was a situation where like Palestine was like yeah you know 1:08:27 come in welcome you know well yeah I hear you I have heard too that like it 1:08:32 was literally you know America I guess right or the United Nations uh really 1:08:38 but they they planned for that foothold to be you know over there in Israel it 1:08:44 was like between three different places I think somewhere in Argentina and yeah and so like yeah it’s obviously like 1:08:52 politics and like power control and stuff but I want to address one comment I apologize before I forget sometimes 1:08:58 I’m forgetful because I’ve seen it multiple times this this comment that the Jews were there in a th BCE or 1:09:05 whatever you know um that you know that’s when they you got to remember one 1:09:10 that’s a really long time ago two if that’s what you’re pointing to the Israelis did weren’t just given that 1:09:16 land they took it um read the Bible read all the stories of uh genocide and and 1:09:22 their their p to the promised land and they slaughtered people to get there so it’s so we’re going back thousands of 1:09:29 years America shouldn’t exist we should give it back to all the tribes that were here back then uh it’s yeah it’s like it’s I who 1:09:37 who is who was I forget who was talking about it but yeah if you you you can go back hundreds thousands of years with 1:09:44 anything we shouldn’t be looking back we shouldn’t be trying to get to back the way things were back then uh we should 1:09:50 definitely be looking for Solutions moving forward that’s why I say the the revanchism like the going back to Who 1:09:57 belongs to what argument is kind of a dead end kind ofor that has to be it’s a 1:10:03 thorn that has to be removed but like it’s it’s one of those things where like 1:10:10 it you know because like the commenter said like I know that technically is you 1:10:15 know that land is not not Jewish land but it’s also not not Palestinian 1:10:22 land so you know like what are you going to do with that you’re just going to go back to it being nobody’s land so why 1:10:30 like there’s there’s no there’s not a really solid argument in the past there as much as there needs to be a more 1:10:36 solid solution than what we have now no it’s kind of wild it’s like two 1:10:42 whole [ _ ] giant groups of people going no it’s my turn yeah if Israel if Israel wants the
1:10:49
whole area they’ve got to be more democratic right I’m not great with us supporting this un undemocratic state
1:10:54
where Palestinians can’t even vote um right so there’s yeah there Tony after
1:11:03
is isra Israel was created uh I do not think they were welcome with open arms
1:11:09
in fact there was they were bombed at and there was war immediately from surrounding countries but they fought
1:11:17
back and they won and I’m thinking how do a bunch of refugees that just got
1:11:24
liberated from the Holocaust suddenly have weapons enough to to throw you know
1:11:29
to push back like three four countries and I’m thinking because uh if you look at the weapons that they had I’m sure a
1:11:36
lot of the USA and so from what from what I was
1:11:42
told I guess the the story that the people are saying in morania that I heard was let’s say my house you know
1:11:49
was Palestine and the Jews were placed there and they take the bedrooms and two
1:11:55
bathrooms and after the war happened uh they took the Jews then took the kitchen
1:12:01
and the laundry room and the study and they took even more land and they said all right all right give us back you
1:12:08
know go ahead and stay in the restroom the restrooms in the in the where you were at just give us everything back and
1:12:14
they said no this is ours now and it think that added more to the fire that
1:12:21
has been burning for 75 years absolutely and just and Travis to be clear I’m not
1:12:26
disagreeing with you on any of this um you know what I’m saying if there if
1:12:31
there are points of disagreement it’s uh sort of the Nuance of the actual occupation because it was I don’t think
1:12:38
it was quite as clean as you do but it’s also just sort of um the effective
1:12:44
nature of a Nuance debate and acknowledging the horrific actions of the other side in order to achieve
1:12:51
progress so it’s not like as if I’m you know not hearing you and not agreeing with you it’s just that I think if we’re
1:12:58
going to make any progress for you see all these people in the chat um you’ve seen it elsewhere obviously that are Hardline Israel maybe maybe you can’t
1:13:06
get through to them but there are people that are on the fence um people that are watching American Media they saw this
1:13:12
terrorist attack they don’t know any of the history of it um they just saw the
1:13:17
horrific nature of the attack um if you want to win the hearts and minds of people like that and I do think it’s
1:13:23
possible you’ve got to start with that you’ve got to start with acknowledging that and then move forward like hey who
1:13:29
do you what caused this because I think you can make an argument that that attack just like I said um Hamas is
1:13:35
partially to blame for the children dying in Palestine Israel is partially
1:13:40
to blame for that terrorist attack for what they’ve done to the Palestinian people and I think you know starting
1:13:46
from that standpoint with that level of nuance I think is the way to move forward but it’s just
1:13:52
Meed yeah to put some certain agendas to um you
1:13:58
know better further explain their standpoint with Israel at least cuz if
1:14:04
you’re going on the media and be like oh yeah well this confli has been happening and this been bombing that and you know
1:14:11
war crimes were committed and we killed people and we’re supporting that cause you know it does not paint a good image
1:14:18
on the United States of America and it’s not somewhere you want to be as a powerful country at all
1:14:24
and but to resolve the issue I think Palestine what they should have been
1:14:30
doing is um getting some powerful allies if anything you know um not necessarily
1:14:36
to fight back but just to you know scare away they have powerful allies conflict
1:14:43
they Iran China and Russia but yeah so that’s the major thing like the United
1:14:48
States and Russia they hate each other but they could never go to war because of nuclear weapons s you know it’s that
1:14:55
these two forces are so powerful that they just exactly yeah go with each
1:15:00
other doesn’t Israel have nuclear weapons as well yeah she they do I saw
1:15:06
the Chinese are rolling in their warships earlier today
1:15:11
um one thing for the pro Palestine like people who are pro Palestinian and you
1:15:16
were talking about like for people are struggling with the both sides issue of this the left or the pro Palestinian
1:15:23
either side really is being targeted heavily with this information right now online it’s very noticeable especially
1:15:29
on Twitter um and telegram uh Facebook
1:15:34
um Reddit like there’s a pattern to like when I’m going to say Russian because
1:15:40
usually that’s what it is like something will Trend very bizarrely like super early in the morning and the big one
1:15:46
over the past couple days has been um like usually the word genocide is in
1:15:51
there and it’s connected to Biden so it’ll be like like Biden side or something like that but I think that
1:15:58
that’s kind of what’s pushing people away from the idea of being able to acknowledge like the ter terrorist
1:16:04
attack was awful because it’s all of that disinformation is designed to slander
1:16:09
the United States like by by tying it to the idea
1:16:15
of genocide in a lot of ways um and it’s it’s interesting to watch unfold cuz
1:16:21
like you’ll see it like you can search things in and like you’ll see copy paste
1:16:26
posts and then like within by the end of the day I start seeing those posts on
1:16:31
here like people using those phrases so it’s just something to be aware of because I think it kind of shuts
1:16:37
people’s active thinking down it’s just super emotional they’re all appeals to emotion and they’re appeals to Identity
1:16:44
politics um saw that with the oh sorry I didn’t mean to stop go you’re fine go
1:16:50
ahead well also yeah we saw that with the U we saw some of that with the hospital bombing we still we still even
1:16:56
know if there was actually a hospital bombed or a parking lot or
1:17:02
well I saw they there was Al jazer They analyzed video footage from like uh uh
1:17:09
security cameras both in Israel and in Gaza and they claimed it was obviously not launched from Hamas and then also
1:17:17
another I don’t remember what the independent journalist team what their name was but they they analyzed the
1:17:23
audio that Israel’s government released claiming to be Hamas soldiers that were
1:17:28
talking between each other saying I think that was our bomb and that was determined to be fake audio that was
1:17:34
pieced together so that’s one thing too is like we don’t know right we just don’t
1:17:40
both sides are engaging in Mis know what’s true yeah but the thing is to me
1:17:46
is like if the claims of Israel making up this propaganda is true it just
1:17:51
really speaks to the point that Israel knows themselves what they’re doing is wrong you know I think both I think both
1:17:57
sides are are propagandizing in some way like like the baby beheadings right we still don’t know if that’s true but that
1:18:04
made everybody angry so far so far the only excuse because Israel IDF has came out and go their excuse now to saying
1:18:12
why they have they don’t want to release any you know photos or any evidence of the 40 babies is out of respect to the
1:18:19
families and to me it just seems like an easy sellout you know just an easy also
1:18:24
here’s my thing here’s the thing though here’s the thing with both of these situations it’s fine to say you don’t
1:18:30
know it’s fine because the whole point of the propaganda that you see whether
1:18:36
it’s coming from Israel Palestine Russia wherever is to push you into an extreme and an example of that is before that
1:18:43
hospital actually while this Hospital thing was going on all I kept hearing on here was how our media was biased
1:18:49
towards Israel and the whole time I’m thinking everything on the news right now is about Israel bombing a hospital
1:18:54
in Hamas or in Palestine and then you know it turns out that regardless who did it
1:19:01
the reporting was horrible like they messed almost the entire story completely across the entire
1:19:07
media but the main story this week was not pro-israel but what was being pushed
1:19:13
online was that our media was not covering anything that everything was
1:19:19
pro-israel so it’s kind of an example of what I’m talking about like there’s narratives being pushed into this
1:19:25
whether you’re Pro Palestine or not that people just need to be able to step back and think like if I don’t know I can
1:19:30
accept that I don’t know because in the fog of all of this we’re not going to know I mean just that simp the fact that
1:19:38
they’re arresting the protesters at the capital like the Thousand American Jewish protesters that were all asking
1:19:45
for a ceasefire on Wednesday last week that to me kind of tells me all I need
1:19:50
to know a little bit you know it’s like why are they trying trying to cover up to me that’s a cover up you know like
1:19:55
why are they trying to shut these people up it’s because they only want to push The Narrative of pro Zionism you know
1:20:02
the Israel is our foothold over there we want them to have the land they’re going to keep us strong in the Middle East
1:20:08
that’s what it looks like to me but what is in there that you may not
1:20:13
know like I don’t what I don’t know about the bombs about like well there’s
1:20:20
a lot I mean as far as are you talking about the Palestinian protesters no did
1:20:25
you see the protest at the United States capital on Wednesday it was like over a thousand people 24 rabbis I think yeah
1:20:33
and like why are so some of them got arrested you know so did some of the Palestinians too though no I think these
1:20:39
were they were Jewish people protesting Israel right yeah Pro it was Pro
1:20:44
Palestine yeah it wasn’t pal it wasn’t uh pro-israel like everyone at the capital on Wednesday was Palestinian
1:20:51
Jews yeah yeah and and they and yeah and that’s so that’s I think you might have
1:20:56
maybe I didn’t say it correctly did you because I I wasn’t saying that they were pro-israel people getting arrested I
1:21:02
didn’t see any of that no I saw Palestinian um yeah it was just yeah
1:21:08
yeah and and and so them getting arrested is obviously like America trying to shut down that whole Palestine
1:21:15
narrative because like you were saying you know they’re just pushing the one specific pro-israel narrative in the
1:21:20
media but I’m not even really seeing that that’s what I’m saying like when I when I go across the media I’m not
1:21:26
seeing just a pro Palestinian narrative I’m seeing people saying that but then when you really look at the reporting
1:21:32
it’s really not as pro-israel as people are saying it is with our media
1:21:38
landscape today too I don’t know if you can even say the term the media anymore it used to be right there used to be a
1:21:44
broad sense of what the media is covering I can’t get that sense anymore and with this story like what we’re
1:21:50
consuming right now where you go yeah exactly this is technically
1:21:57
we’re probably more accurate than most so I mean Wolf Blitzer is a former APAC
1:22:03
lobbyist like there’s so it runs so deep um I I think APAC is very I mean APAC is
1:22:11
you know that’s a um biggest lobbies on the Hill are the
1:22:18
Israelis and the Saudis yeah I and the NRA
1:22:25
yeah well for one side yeah but APAC and Saudis have power on both sides oh yeah
1:22:31
for sure for sure can I a little bit like lazy here and ask I mean I saw the
1:22:37
Red Dawn kind of parachuting that happened at the festival and you know the missiles that were being lobbed
1:22:43
after all that what ignited this all of a sudden I mean was it going back to
1:22:49
we’re still pissed off about 75 years ago and there’s still kind of fighting because of that or was there no
1:22:56
recognition of their government I mean what do you know what what it was Israelis have been running um uh
1:23:03
more intense raids for the last year or two under n Netanyahu it’s one of the
1:23:09
many reasons he’s getting pushed back internally um and those raids have
1:23:14
resulted in some 600 you know children dying and whatnot um you guys think it
1:23:22
was the in up of that that was I think what led to Hamas but or you know Hamas doing what they did but you also have
1:23:29
world powers at play you’ve got Ukraine you’ve got Iran um you know there there
1:23:34
absolutely could have been some sort of instigation as well given the timing there’s a lot of
1:23:39
factors do you guys think Israel knew it was coming CU I mean they they are they
1:23:45
have I do I’m not going to BU that’s the whole September 11 conspiracy theory Cen
1:23:51
I mean they got it was more that
1:23:56
told well the thing is though is a lot of countries told us about 911 a lot of
1:24:03
you know stuff like that in hindsight you could like oh yeah you knew but how often do you think they get intelligence
1:24:08
that the Palestinians are going to attack well then what about okay that’s about what to do about the intelligence
1:24:14
is very challenging sometimes yeah what about the fact too though that it took them what was it six or eight hours to
1:24:20
respond and apparently there’s like a military base right next to the the damn concert you know and they just used the
1:24:26
excuse of like oh well that was our holy day so everyone was off but there again you’re looking at circumstantial stuff
1:24:33
right like um like yeah of course I wouldn’t put it past nit Yahoo to have some sort
1:24:38
of Nefarious reasons for instigating this thing but you need hard evidence to
1:24:45
be able to to be able to make those kind of allegations why do you think I mean is 8 hours a long time or 6 hours even
1:24:52
is that isn’t that kind of a long time for them to respond look how long January 6
1:24:57
lasted yeah but that’s you know we know already that Trump was just sitting
1:25:02
watching his TV and didn’t we didn’t go into Afghanistan for uh what was it a
1:25:09
week or two and we knew who did it I mean we knew what was going on we knew
1:25:14
Al-Qaeda and all that so that and how long was it between the first and the third plane yeah well I’m just talking about
1:25:21
you know the fact that they didn’t put any soldiers on the ground you know
1:25:26
in response yeah just until we know we don’t know
1:25:33
right until we know we don’t know so it’s hard to say yeah there’s you can have your suspicions but suspicions
1:25:39
don’t make facts so it’s it’s hard to operate on that well I got all the
1:25:44
suspicions not so many facts I’m the suspicion guy suspicions are way more
1:25:50
fun that’s for this information will Target those suspicions that is exactly what I see
1:25:56
when I look at this like research of stuff online well Dan does have well that’s what my Spidey senses are
1:26:06
for I will say though I’m gonna actually um I’m going to head I’m going to give Enlighten mentality the last word um I
1:26:12
hear but uh I’m going to end this I apologize guys but I think this is exactly the Nuance discussion that
1:26:17
people should be having so hopefully we LED some kind of example today but yeah enlightment if you want to I think you
1:26:24
had you were saying something I cut you off I didn’t have the last word I was going to ask you a question I was going to start a big discussion so I probably
1:26:29
shouldn’t ask it unless you want to have the last word what are you uh maybe we can address it tomorrow it might come on
1:26:35
tomorrow too what’s the question uh my question was going to be how you think Biden’s been handling all
1:26:42
this ah um I’ll I’ll just give my brief response I guess uh I think initially
1:26:49
the world went way too hard in support of Israeli self-defense
1:26:56
although I think it was appropriate to um defend their right to self-defense I
1:27:02
think it was as as if the world was Israel and Israel was the world and you know the perception of that was horrid
1:27:08
and I think Biden played into that that being said since then I think he’s absolutely taken a um a well balanced
1:27:16
approach um trying to get the Israelis to be cautious in Gaza um but you know
1:27:22
that being said Biden is very much part of this military-industrial complex that
1:27:27
I hate so much um you know and 150 million for Israel Ukraine and whatnot
1:27:35
is fine but why weren’t you willing to cut the military budget after Afghanistan why you know why aren’t we
1:27:41
looking other sources for that money when we when we really need that money so I guess that that’s my short answer
1:27:47
is he’s doing okay he’s doing far better than Trump ever would that’s for sure but um I don’t know why he’s so for a
1:27:54
Democrat he’s very much a Law and Order military industrial complex kind of guy
1:27:59
and that bugs me a little but fair answer Fair answer I mean you
1:28:06
should have seen that coming with with the sunglasses he has those cop sunglasses yeah that’s true he looks
1:28:11
like he looks like the cop from hey Tony thanks for having me on
1:28:18
man you have a good night all right thanks guys I’ll talk to you later see you later
1:28:23
than love you

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